August 3, 2010

'Sugarbabe' favors negotiated infidelity

Posted: 02:46 PM ET


(CNN) - Could letting your man sleep with another woman help your relationship?

Author and former mistress Holly Hill thinks so.

"One of the main things that I have learned is that a woman that negotiates infidelity with her partner is far more powerful than a woman who is sitting home wondering why he's late from the office Christmas party," she says.

"It's better to walk the dog on a leash than let it escape through an unseen hole in the back fence."

Hill's memoir, "Sugarbabe" details her yearlong adventure with a series of so-called "sugar daddies." The book sold 24,000 copies in her native Australia, according to her publisher, and has just been released in the United States. Holly Hill is a pen name.

"I thought it was men that would like the book," she says, "But in fact it's women, because what it says to women is that if your man cheats on you, he still loves you, and he's probably running about average."

Allowing their men to stray is a concept that's difficult for most women to contemplate.

But Hill says that if a woman takes the time to truly examine her relationship and considers Mother Nature's unerring spell on men's libidos, she might realize that letting her boyfriend or spouse know she's OK with him having sex elsewhere is a logical way to prevent him from doing it in secret.

"I think that cheating men are normal," says Hill. "Monogamous men are heroes. Monogamy does have a place in relationships, but not on the long-term. Men are hard-wired to betray women on the long-term."

But psychology professor Lawrence Josephs believes it is more personality type than gender that indicates whether a person might cheat.


Filed under: Larry King Live

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Rose   August 3rd, 2010 3:57 pm ET

Whatever issues men may have re: being "hardwired" to betray women – infidelity, whether negotiated or not, has the very real problem of spreading STDs and HIV/AIDS to spouses/partners.

Misapplication of safe sex (assuming it's practiced) still results in unwanted pregnancies and health issues in many cases. Holly Hill's simple answers to complex problems are baffling. Giving men permission to have sex with others openly, instead of in secret, will not address a myriad of underlying potential problems. Problems beyond sexuality that may exist with the individual or with the couple. Affairs being used to mask other issues.

Hill's dog analogy: "It's better to walk the dog on a leash than let it escape through an unseen hole in the back fence" says it all. Here's another analogy: Let your dog stray, when he returns – lay down with him and wake up with fleas.

When the incessant itching doesn't stop, it's time for the woman to reconsider this "negotiation" and put the dog in the doghouse and re-claim her self-esteem, if not her husband.

Rose   August 3rd, 2010 4:51 pm ET

Here's some unappetizing info for anyone considering a non-monogamous relationship:

Transmission of the herpes virus cannot be prevented by using a condom (but can reduce it). Herpes spreads by skin-to-skin (and oral) contact instead of through bodily fluids. As condoms do not cover all potentially infectious skin, they cannot completely stop herpes from spreading. There is no cure for herpes, outbreaks are life long.

The number of people with herpes (HSV-1 oral and HSV-2 genital) in the US: over 50 million. Number of cases up in the past decade: 30%. More women than men have it. Infidelity has consequences.

Cesar   August 3rd, 2010 6:07 pm ET

I find the best way to handle my desire for other women is to be on the internet. I will not bring any STDs back to my beloved wife and I can be anything to these women. They love all my attention. I can be their boyfriend, best friend even girlfriend and they will never know. I love the internet. 😮

Thomas   August 3rd, 2010 9:13 pm ET

Some day women may realize that it is in our nature to Sleep with other women, just a fact of nature. Most married men if given the chance to cheat and not get caught will do it, 100% of the time.

Jennifer   August 3rd, 2010 9:15 pm ET

I find it interesting that nothing is being said about women in sexless marriages cheating, it happens all the time.

Michael   August 3rd, 2010 9:20 pm ET

Funny thing but...I never knew that no married women whatsoever ever, ever have affairs. Only men huh. Not from my experience people. When I was single two married women had affairs with me and yes, they absolutly came after me.

maj   August 3rd, 2010 9:21 pm ET

this is a great subject, just one problem no mans point of view, the problem with open disclosure is it takes the mystery out of the relationship, sparks important

Ray West   August 3rd, 2010 9:22 pm ET

When We enter into a relationship there are bounderies and guidelines of honesty and respect that are set in place from a moral stand point. If We continue to Create or allow these activites of being unfaithful or dishonesty We send a message to all those We are in contact with along the path of life. That message is clear and consise that We no longer have self respect or self worth and that it is ok to Lie, Cheat and why not add Stealing in there as well because without any Morals of Truth and Love inyour life You might as well become a doormat for all.
You can be alone and not have all those things attached to negativity in Your life and still be Happy.

Many Blessings to All,


shawanda brown   August 3rd, 2010 9:33 pm ET

i love alexandria wintworth ....but she is not good hosting this show ...everybody is talking at the same time

brownbeautycndn   August 3rd, 2010 9:37 pm ET

I am in agreement with married people having their sexual urges met outside the marriage, but only if it is agreed upon by both parties. Other wise there will only be problems. I have not yet been in a long-term relationship and the more I think about it the more I realize that society has a closed minded opinion about the rules of a relationship. I strongly feel that the world has a lot of men and women that are very attractive. In my perfect world I would be able to walk up to any attractive man and either kiss, make out, or simply have sex with him because I find him attractive. Complete and true sexuality is free from borders. Sexuality is normal and natural. Capitalism is where sexuality gets stomped on. Capitalism puts a stop to the free flow of sexuality. The world is way too caught up in don't. I'm talking about being able to be with who ever you want too and when ever you want too. Sexual in nature or not. Could you imagine how much happier the world would be if we let go of the rules and walls we put around ourselves? There is nothing wrong with sexuality in the purest form. The definition of marriage is changing and it continually will. Life is about change. The sooner you accept change, with what ever, the happier you will be. Or you could simply be a part of the small group of people that refuse to change and continue being alone in the small group.

Carson   August 3rd, 2010 9:37 pm ET

I have a brother who has cheated in his relationship. Even if given permission, it has done nothing but wreck his relationship with his family and many of his friends. It just isn't worth the trouble. If you want to sleep around, just don't get into the commited relationship. Either way, you make the bed you sleep in and deal with the consequences of either decision.

Dave Robinson   August 3rd, 2010 9:38 pm ET

I feel sorry for that one lady who actually thinks all men cheat. In fact I am offended. Marrage is not a contract, but covenant. I could write a good deal about this subject, but it would take too long!!!

Carson   August 3rd, 2010 9:42 pm ET

"Some day women may realize that it is in our nature to Sleep with other women, just a fact of nature. Most married men if given the chance to cheat and not get caught will do it, 100% of the time."

WRONG!!! Speak for yourself. Sure, we are hardwired to mate. Every animal in the world is. But it is possible to control the urge to mate. Jeez man. Your giving everyone the excuse. Not the answer.

Mrs.Owens   August 3rd, 2010 9:47 pm ET

Men don't stray just because they are men, they stray because something is missing. If you are "a lady in the streets and a freak in the sheets" it's easy to keep a good man happy. There are some men who are just dogs by nature, but most men are good guys. Infidelity is not ok or healthy. There are too many std's out there killing people. I am monogamous and so is my husband because we are both satisfied. He is all the man I need and I know I am all the woman he needs even after 11 years. You shouldn't be proud to be a mistress all you are is a glorified hooker and what goes around comes around.

Thomas   August 3rd, 2010 9:50 pm ET

August 3rd, 2010 9:42 pm ET

"Some day women may realize that it is in our nature to Sleep with other women, just a fact of nature. Most married men if given the chance to cheat and not get caught will do it, 100% of the time."

WRONG!!! Speak for yourself. Sure, we are hardwired to mate. Every animal in the world is. But it is possible to control the urge to mate. Jeez man. Your giving everyone the excuse. Not the answer.

So your agreeing that we are hard wired to cheat, but most guys won't..
Must be nice living in your world. Break up 50% of marriages because of a natral urge...

single gal in the city   August 3rd, 2010 9:58 pm ET

This is a great discussion and open to so many opinions. But here is what I think...

So, I am single, never been married, can't say I particularly agree with commitment, maybe I just haven't met him – whatever. I am currently involved in a "mutually beneficial" relationship with a married man. He has been married for about twenty years with no children. He calls his marriage a partnership.

Now, when we met at a bar about two years ago, mind you, he wasn't wearing a wedding band, he revealed that he was married and basically put it out there that he was looking for a young, fun girl to spend time with and in return pamper with gifts, fabulous dinners and cold hard cash.

I wasn't into it then and he pursued me for several months and bought me expensive gifts and so forth. I didn't give in until recently, because as of late I am all about the sugar daddy arrangement. Yes. Considering my current messy financial situation I pretty much decided to spend time with this married, obviously neglected, extremely sweet man. In return he pays me lots of money.

Call me a prostitute, whatever. All I know is that I can't help but think his wife must be neglecting him to a certain degree. If not, why would he call me so often? He always wants me to spend the night with him so that he can practically suffocate me while we sleep. Yes he holds me with both arms and places his leg over mine. It's a bit overwhelming and I can't help but feel sorry for him. I have no emotional connection to him, it's only about the financial relief he provides.

So for every neglected, bored, tired of routine, married man or woman that may not want to go through a messy divorce there is a "mutually beneficial" relationship that makes everyone happy.
just my opinion – no facts.

MG   August 3rd, 2010 10:00 pm ET

Yes, why is it people think it's only men who are hardwired to cheat? When I was living in a major financial city I found many husbands who were busy making lots of money had wives who were cheating on them. It wasn't their fault they were focusing on their careers but their wives had lots of time and and money (thanks to their husbands) and many cheated with their trainers, tennis coaches, or male acquaintances, etc. Some also went on short holidays with their girlfriends and had a bit of fun on the side. Most of their husbands were too busy working to cheat on them. Of course some found the time.

As for single women who seem to only go after married men (yes I have a friend who does just this) they're insecure and think that by being able to get a man who belongs to someone else they are proving they are just as good or better than that wife ie they can have what another woman has. The truth is getting a married man is about the easiest thing a single girl can do, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. They're probably a little bored and they're flattered that a single woman is going after them. It's much harder than going after an eligible single man.

Anyone who's willing to sell herself short by allowing her husband to sleep around, well what about her own needs not to mention the threat of STDs? Are we forgetting women have needs just like men. One of the things I told my husband before we got married was that I expected sex all the time. When it started to thin out I was not happy. After a decade I left him but no, it wasn't just the lack of sex, that was just a symptom. When one partner starts to look for it outside the marriage there's a problem and negotiating it doesn't take care of the problem. As for the mental cheating that Holly mentions, both men and women do it and we wouldn't be human if we didn't. It's completely different than actual cheating.

Canna   August 3rd, 2010 10:01 pm ET

After being married for 42 years, Holly, in my opinion you are a immature, inexperienced woman – marriage is not suppose to be a sexual negotiation! Any one who uses another persons vulnerabilities, sexually or otherwise as a means of earning income or betraying another person is a shrewd manipulative opportunist..
As long as women like yourself continue to believe men/women should be allowed to cheat and have sex as often as they like with anyone they like the more irresponsible we will all become. Honesty, truth and faithfulness are core values in any marriage. Lying, cheating dishonesty is selfish, cowardly and can only destroy a relationship. It does not strengthen a marriage!
Unless we all start taking responsibility and be truthful with one another for our actions we will never be satisfied sexually or otherwise.

Betty Smith   August 3rd, 2010 10:03 pm ET

Apparently, she game up early!!!

devastatedone   August 3rd, 2010 10:08 pm ET

Married 22 years this April. Saw husband on cell phone video in hotel room with other woman in May. My screen name says it all. I don't care what these self-promoting "ladies" say....infidelity cannot be negotiated. It's an ignorant conceit that completely ignores the emotional bonds and boundaries of a relationship. A relationship with negotiated infidelity is shallow, hollow and self-serving. I'd rather be alone than have a 'dog' I have to 'fence in' or manage on a long leash.

Luis B. Rosario   August 3rd, 2010 10:37 pm ET

More than 51 percent of American couples cheat on their love
partners.. Ninety percent of the time, a woman is involved on
man's infedlity and must of the time the woman is not a prostitute.
It is kind of ironic to stereotype men only as the culprits of an
extramarital affair.

KENNY   August 3rd, 2010 10:45 pm ET


MG   August 3rd, 2010 10:47 pm ET

Totally agree with all those who say that lying and cheating in a marriage is selfish and destroys a marriage. As for Holly's analogy of husbands to dogs, frankly a bad analogy, I kept the dog after my marriage ended and he has always been faithful and devoted to me without the leash. Just as I expect a husband to be.

Also, prostitution isn't just mistresses who accept money like Holly, they also get paid in kind, let's not forget. I witnessed some of this with my friend who received trips, gifts, dinners, etc – basically she was stealing these things from someone's wife and children. She was also stealing this mans time from his wife and family. This includes holidays – she would go on holiday to the same places at the same time as her married lover. It was awful and these are only the things that I stumbled upon as we had an agreement that she not tell me about her personal life so we wouldn't fight.

Stanslaus B. kagali   August 3rd, 2010 11:04 pm ET

Faithlessness among couples is a common. Many couple beleave that to have another relationship outside their marriage is essential! When there is misunderstanding at home, the piece can be obtained to the someone who special for him/her outside the marriage!

Lauro Silva   August 3rd, 2010 11:16 pm ET

Í still believe that a couple, including today the same-sex union, manages to go ahead as long as the real passion between the partners keeps existing. That passion is made up of deep affection and more deeper yet sexual desire. It´s a real melting pot made of character, temperament, beauty, politeness, sensuality, smells,kindness, admiration, honesty,loyalty, but... not submission. That intrincated grid of feelings unfortunately does not last for good. When that grid gets broken, regardless of how big is the damage the end of the relationship starts showing its face. Separation soon or later will occur. A dignified separation means a lot, maybe promising a tighter future reconciliation with different or modified ingredients in the melting pot. Regardless how the separation occurs, unpleasant consequences will be always present involving health, finances, depression, boredom, children, uncertainty,drugs, booze, depravation, loneliness,suicide. Or then, another partner or reconciliation showing up. All that submitted to the implacability of the time going by. So, I feel sorry for the thougts and concepts defended by Hill, Dean and whoever.

Gerald Jolly   August 3rd, 2010 11:17 pm ET

Just remember folks.


AHHHH! for the sixties and FREE LOVE, and STD'S

Name*adrena   August 4th, 2010 1:03 am ET

Dats funny my husbands infidelity helpd me to write a song titled, "What's Good for da Goose is. Good for da Gander too if u do it to me I'm gonna do it bck to u". Writn music helps me cope and now my album is cmplet and titled "Thoughts of a Woman "

Lisa   August 3rd, 2010 11:57 pm ET

I think people need to be honest about what they want in a relationship. If everyone is able to make an honest then no one gets hurt.

brandon grand gunction.colo   August 4th, 2010 12:17 am ET

I was in a relationship that was open and she would not stop she started sneaking around. it has proven to me that it does not work. im in a relationship now with my child hood sweet heart and there are times when i have to go with out. i handle my problem in the shower. the bed room is to be kept between husband and wife.

melica1776   August 4th, 2010 12:25 am ET

"Men are hard-wired to betray women on the long-term."
Its simple guys and gals, no man will purchase her book because they are not interested, and she only has to attract other women attention, and that's the reason she is one sided with this.

Craig Ontiveros   August 4th, 2010 12:40 am ET

Listening to your panel, I appreciate various positions, however, I do take issue with the fact that a couple of comments have been stated, saying "that all men cheat".

Each participant have each made valid and right points

Listen, first of all. The definition of cheating, is having to lie about your actions. So, in many ways "Sugar Babe" is right. As long as the couple can be honest with one another and they can openly and effectively communicate and come to solid firm agreements. Then, that is between them.

On the other hand. How about talking about what I guess would be considered the minority. Those people that truly are in fact deeply in love and that both esteem and treasure each others hearts and feelings. As a man, I have to say, we do in fact exist.

This is just another arena, where socital institutions fail us.

If in fact, we had our education venues focusing on "Courtship" and "The Marriage Vows", instead of throwing in the towel and passing out condoms and performing easy abortions. We may actually help create a much more stronger society and maybe we would see many more relationships and marriages actually work.

kelly   August 4th, 2010 12:41 am ET

I think that this is disgusting allowing cheating we as society are allowing complete disrespect on all levels. Teaching children its okay to be a future mess as they grow up.People are messed up as it is children with no fathers half brothers sisters everywhere. Our world is rude and in complete dissaray.Cheaters should be sued and fined .
Shame on society and the pigs who support it.

Donald   August 4th, 2010 3:21 am ET

I really have a problem with Holly and Sarah's outlook on men and the infidelity. I have been married three times and all three of my exs cheated on me and before you ask NO I did not cheat on them unless you consider looking at or talking to a member of the opposite sex cheating.
So until you have your records straight please refrain from stating that all men are cheaters.

Thank You
Don C

jesse   August 4th, 2010 3:27 am ET

I believe that this Holly is just a nympho and people like to encourge others to do what they'@re doing so they can feel better about theyself. she is just a hoe with a book deal!

Matt G   August 4th, 2010 3:34 am ET

The guests on this show are so completely one sided in terms of Males as cheaters. As a young married man. I know (Through my wife) that most of teh couples we know literally 80+ % have wives that have had affairs (including my own.) In terms of my wifes affair I had to think to myself what is most important she was honest with me about what happened and I felt that because we are still in love and still committed to our life together and children that that was more important than the dogmatic "I will leave if you cheat." I think that the most important thing is that the relationship is honest and that both partners are getting their needs met. If there needs are too dissimilar then they should not be together.

Marriage is not a negotiation or a commitment. It is an agreement. Its important that both partners are honest about what they need.

Men are not all the same Women are not all the same and the stereotypes that they put forward in this show are terrible. SHAME on you CNN for having such a narrow view of such an important topic.

beenthere-donethat   August 4th, 2010 4:13 am ET

When I married my 3rd wife, she was 38, I'm 42 and her 4th husband. Infidelity played a part ln the disalusion of her 3 marriages. So we talked a lot about sex /infidelity and determined if we both would be presented with exciting situations we would both like to take it. and we would call and tell that we got LUCKY so what we did was negotiate infidelity out of our marriage.. condom use and good soapy shower after. We discussed that we might faii head-over heels and want a divorce. bUT we reflected on how we did that before and it came to nothing but a divorce. a fw years down the road.and we decided to take a chance and have nothing more than a good fling..and if it turned into something more well then "congratulations!'
we been married 26 years now

Jamie   August 4th, 2010 5:13 am ET

I'm sorry I thought this was the Larry King Show, I felt I was watching The Oprah Winfrey Show.

grahamophone   August 4th, 2010 5:58 am ET

I hope CNN reads these comments – I was really interested in the topic of monogamy vs. polamory, but I found the guest host (never caught her name) to be more than annoying. Atrocious, as a matter of fact. She definitely took sides, which is not good journalism, she did a terrible job of moderating the conversation, she rolled her eyes to someone on the staff while the camera was still on her before the commercial break.

This is a very interesting sociological topic that could've filled an entire hour. To squeeze it in a half-hour before the shark-week special was bad planning on the part of CNN. Also, the two panelists for polyamory were both non-Americans, making it seem like Americans are prude and holier-than-thou .... I could go on and on and on... Bad journalism, CNN. Don't make me switch to Fox News!! And get that woman out of Larry's chair. She was AWFUL!!

My Goodness!   August 4th, 2010 7:20 am ET

This was the worst commentator (facilitator!) that Larry has ever had. One couldn't even hear each person make their point. Please CNN (Larry) get a good commentator!!!!!

Mary Whtie   August 4th, 2010 8:14 am ET

Utterly ridiculous show last night...a waste of TV time. After 50 years of marriage, I can tell you that infidelity is not what makes a great marriage. Those silly women! And why do TV shows keep asking that woman to be on TV or host shows...she is just awful. CNN usually is a good station to watch....Joy Behar show is ridiculous...she thinks the propaganda of Bill Clinton's phlandering was a product of the Republican party? Give me a break!!!!!

Either get out of the business or be serious about imparting information and entertaining!!!

Paul Nicholson   August 4th, 2010 8:52 am ET

As a Brit watching the Larry King show I am particularly annoyed with that British female writer and ex-mistress of G. Ramsay. What a rude, loud-mouthed slapper she is. The Aussie woman was bad enough. The American lady writer was the sanest there. And that host was useless.
I totally agree with most of the blogs on show. As a divorced man, who was married for 21 years with 2 children, I can happily claim never to have even been close to "playing away." And my marraige was pretty awful. It all boils down to being moralistic, principled and having a conscience.
Larry is sorely missed by me and I hope CNN pick a suitable replacement. That will be hard.

Ted   August 4th, 2010 9:18 am ET

Holly Hill is nothing, but a prostitute, I am sure her "sugardaddies" all had plenty of money!!
Any women, who go after married men, ready to destroy a marriage for just a quickie, rae just as guilty as the men who go for them.

Any couples, who believe their marriage is better if they keep changing partners just kid themselves. A marriage is not only sex, but trust, love, caring for eachother and getting old together.
If you are looking for aids or any other illnesses, just keep on cheating on your partner. At the end you can have fun by figuring out who brought home that illness both of you have.

When men cheat, they usually do it with women. According to reliable statistics, about 10% of the children have fathers that are not the husband of the mother.
Do not blame men all the time, it takes two to tango.

janetp   August 4th, 2010 10:37 am ET

last night was one of the worst episodes--Ali W. didn't know how to
handle 3 guests at once–would have been a great debate, but
there was no host to keep the flow going

David Thomas   August 4th, 2010 10:52 am ET

Too bad this show does not print all comments. A little discrjmination it would seem. I sent a comment last night that got edited.

The assertion that 100% of all men sleep around is an assumption that is used to justify abberant, immoral lbehavior. I did not marry until the age of 32 AND was a virgin when married. AND I have been married 36 years with no philandering outside of marriage. I love my wife and would not cheat on her.

Rose   August 4th, 2010 12:08 pm ET

Bottom line: Regardless of natural "urges" (for both men and women) and opportunities, the consequences of infidelity are so damaging they should extinguish any foolish ideas.

Infidelity can lead to the breakdown of a relationship/family, children with broken homes, part-time or absent parent, financial problems, legal problems, psychological problems, endless fighting, trust or commitment issues, self esteem issues, guilt, alcohol or substance abuse, unhealthy environment.

A short romp in the sack is not worth the negative long term effects caused by infidelity. Many who went down the cheating-path greatly regretted their actions later. "Good-time parties" tend to end quickly but the "clean up" takes a long, long time with participants finding themselves in the proverbial garbage can.

men are not supposed to be with one woman   August 4th, 2010 12:39 pm ET

It's true. 8 years and I love the wife but it's sexless. What's a man to do? I try to spice it up, get her interested, but she makes excuses. I'm 35, fit, and love the kids. But I'm a man.

Irregardless of my love for the wife and kids, I'm a man with needs. If the wife isn't willing to take care of them, my options are limited. I know other guys in worse situations but 6-12 months without any intimacy? Come on? It's cruelty.

It's a shame that even though you love your family, a man can't block out who we are. I wish I could. But I can't even though I want to resist. It's a real shame and I can't believe someone would consider ME the bad partner. Which is worse, denial of a basic necessity or someone taking advantage of fact that there are people who want to be intimate with them.

CL   August 4th, 2010 12:48 pm ET

Would love to see what women would be like if they were jacked up with testosterone like men are? This would all be a very different discussion. Women can do their best to understand but they never truly will. Holly has an enlightening point that will take women years to wrap their heads around. I'm glad she's out there getting the discussion started.

Thank you Holly.

Jacob Moscynski   August 4th, 2010 1:38 pm ET

This holly lady, is probably one of the stupidest women I've seen on CNN in a long time.

CB   August 4th, 2010 1:43 pm ET

Yea Yea thats what i like

Zeta1125   August 4th, 2010 1:46 pm ET

Let’s take a few points into consideration here:

1) Many people here argue that men are naturally drawn to have many mates because it’s their nature, “men are suppose to have many mates because its natural”, but this is an incomplete statement, it’s taken out of context to better suit the argument of these people. I can also say “killing a man is ok” but the argument is incomplete, it’s taken out of context to suit my argument “killing a man is ok when he is threatening to kill millions”, notice the difference?
Now let’s go back to the argument taken out of context, “men are supposed to have many mates because it’s natural.” Here’s the real argument “men are suppose to have many mates because it’s nature that they need many children, this is due to harsh conditions of being part of nomadic tribes, the chances of one child surviving are low so a man must have many children to assure the continuation of his family.” That argument is about the nature of a man, but this was many many years ago, this argument doesn’t hold today because we are no longer living in a tribal culture, we are no longer a nomadic species.
The purpose of multiple mates is to be able to have multiple kids with those mates, I bet if her man had that she wouldn’t be too happy now would she, but hey it’s the natural thing she says she accepts right?

2) Continuing with the argument that it’s natural for a man to have many partners because it was like that in those days is an argument against evolution. Back in those days it was natural for men from one tribe to kill children of another tribe, to avoid the other tribe from breeding or continuing their line. These are natural ways, just like animals, lions kill the cubs of other lions and then rape the mother to make sure she has their children, that’s natural. Did you know that cannibalism is also a very common thing in nature; does that mean we should do it because it’s natural? We have evolved beyond those primal instincts of rape and killing and having many mates to spread our seed (well at least some of us have). It’s evolution.

3) I saw someone argue that people are selfish because they are holding back their mates desires to have many partners and they are not letting them be happy. I’ll give you this argument in response. I know for a fact my girlfriend would be very happy if she had a million dollars, does that mean if she tells me she wants to rob a bank I should let her, because that will get her her million dollars and she will be happy?
Now we can jump into the argument that this is comparing apples to oranges because having multiple partners in a relationship isn’t morally wrong (for you) while robbing a bank is, well that all depends on what you base your morality on. You might find it ok and I don’t so therefore that gives you the right to do it; murders have been shown to think it’s not morally wrong to kill someone, yet you think it is wrong, why should your argument hold over his? You could state that because the murderer is hurting someone then it’s wrong but your having many partners isn’t except that how would you know you’re not hurting the child of that person who is having many partners apart from her husband or boyfriend, the father of the child. Do you think the child would be ok with knowing that his mom is having s*x with other partners, maybe you and the mother are ok with it but maybe the child is hurt. Don’t think your actions only affect you, the repercussions aren’t just limited to what you and some other person do, I assure you they will affect others.
I could give a more extreme argument that would be an excellent example of lack of morality that “doesn’t hurt anyone” but I’ll save that for the sake of some peoples weak stomachs.

4) Lastly I’d like to argue how some people say yet again that people agree with her because she doesn’t limit her partners, yet she herself admits she does. Sure she lets them have other mates except she doesn’t allow them to spoon, there, she is putting boundaries, what if her partner wants to stay the night or wants to spoon with another because that would make them happy, what then?
The reason we limit ourselves is because of self control, the nature argument is obsolete. Honestly if we were allowed to do what we wanted then the streets would be rampant with men just humping every hot chick they saw, trust me, men want to have sex with a chick every time they think they’re hot, does that mean it’s unnatural to repress these desires; no, because if it was, then the natural thing would be to just run around naked and hump every hot chick you saw on the street, and don’t give me that crap that when you see a hot chick you don’t want to bone her because now you’re just lying to yourself. The point is the natural thing to not act on those desires, to show some self restraint, just like you show restraint when you hold back punching that idiot that cut you off, even though the natural thing to do would be to jump on him and beat him senseless (that’s how animals would solve their differences, very natural).

5) My last argument against having multiple partners, feelings will come into play. I am not a ladies’ man but I have been in a few relationships, two of which we both agreed that we were just gonna have fun. Both those relationships ended up evolving into her wanting to not just have fun but have a full relationship, on one of those I wanted that as well, on the other I didn’t. The point is, after some time having fun, sh*t got real and things changed. You can’t have many mates because eventually one might want something more and that’s when sh*t gets real. Holly Hill argues that she lets her man be free but why do you think she tells her man he can have many mates but can’t sleep over or can’t spoon, because she’s scared that if he does do those things he’s going to start feeling more for that other person, he might start feeling so much more that he will end up leaving her for the other person, she knows it’s bound to happen so she puts boundaries, some freedom... She argues that she has no worries now but its bull because the spooning is exactly something that leads to her biggest worry, the same worry that she says only monogamists have and she doesn’t because she’s evolved beyond that, yeah right.

TOMMIE & GISELE   August 4th, 2010 2:07 pm ET


tom   August 4th, 2010 3:02 pm ET

C U Next Tuesday!

Neeneko   August 4th, 2010 3:55 pm ET


The thing that annoys me about pieces like this is not only do they reinforce gender norms (desexualizing women), but they obviously are NOT talking to the poly (or even open) community. Every single one of these stories lately has focused on men breaking away from their mono partner who 'just wants initamcy'.

When you look at the actual poly community, it is the women who are the movers and the shakers. Both members of the couple go out and build rewarding relationships with others.. sometimes they build closed circles (the over reported triad being a standard example), sometimes they build open systems (the more common case).

Believe it or not, women can go out an have a sexual identity too.. sex is not just something women 'put up with' in order to build intimacy.... and also believe it or not, women can be intimate with multiple people.

But no... it is sexier to fit this into pre-existing perceptions instead.

smartgirl   August 4th, 2010 4:10 pm ET

The hilarity in the garbage this poor excuse for a person is spouting, is that it's inevitable that she will one day, wake up and realize that she has done irreparable damage to herself. I am a pretty opened minded person, but I also use the common sense that I was given to know when something is wrong, and when it's right. So, I listened to this women, and I have to say, she is completely ridiculous!! haha First of all she says she is in a "very long relationship" with her partner. Sorry, hun, but two years is nothing compared to people like my grandparents that have been married for 50 years. Two years is not even close to enough time to see if this "negotiated infidelity" could even be successful. What is she going to say when this guy she is with goes out and sleeps with a women that he comes to care for, and will not give into her demands for not being able to have a more meaningful relationship with the other women? I know people that have enjoyed and had fun living the single life, and it seems like they will never enjoy being in a faithful relationship, then BOOM, they meet someone that they can't live without, and it all goes out the window! So let's say her boyfriend meets a new women, one that he really enjoys spending time with....then her plan is an epic fail all along because she didn't keep her man by negotiating infidelity. Now everyone knows that she was basically a prostitute, and no self-respecting decent guy will ever touch her. So as far as I'm concerned if it doesn't work out with the guy she is with now, she has completely lost any chance of even finding someone who truly loves her and wants to spend the rest of their life with her. I feel sorry for her. Also, this book is just another opportunistic ploy to make extra cash by using her sex/life and body. P.S. Holly, Your sugardaddy list will be pretty short after this, I imagine, lol. So much for that money making gig. Her ex hurt her by not wanting to leave his wife....but instead of being a strong, intelligent women she goes and writes the biggest piece of garbage read, to try and put other women into the pathetic boat right along with her. Ladies, DO NOT READ INTO THIS CRAP! Every women out there is beautiful in their own way, and deserves the love a man that loves her completely!!!!

Rose   August 4th, 2010 5:25 pm ET

We all need to eat to survive. Some are obese, some are thin etc. We find ways to provide for ourselves. Either by buying, growing or through assistance. Some eat caviar, others bread and water. If we don't have the means, we may steal. This is not acceptable in society and is punishable by law.

Sex is similar. Though lack of sex will not kill (as in lack of food), there are societal channels of acceptability. We find ways to provide it. Through marriage – craving the caviar of love and lust, which in time "may" turn to crumbs. Even taking vows before the Almighty to perserve fidelity. The cultural need for monogamy for women to confirm paternity in Judeo-Christian societies. Polygamy/bigamy is not acceptable in western convention and is punishable by law.

Others find more illicit ways to deal with sex. Constant changing of partners. Boredom used as an excuse for lack of self-discipline. Some pay for it. Others accept payment for it. Some involved in duplicity, in order to have their cake and eat it to, when the menu is deemed stale.

Others are satisfied with their partners and not willing to jeopardize healthy relationships for tasty yet non-nutritional junk fix partners. When faced with life devasting results due to our choices, when the years of "doing what we want" takes its toll and the clogged arteries of our relationships are failing – when massive intervention can barely salvage the damage of ill-thought out pursuit of urges, emotional paralysis may creep in. The gluttonous end game for neglecting years of exercise in culturally required monogamy.

The Rolling Stones said it best: "You can't always get what you want, and if you try sometimes you find, you get what you need" – right on Mick and Keith.

Nan   August 4th, 2010 5:51 pm ET

"Men are hard-wired to betray women in the long run." ???? This women is speaking in generalities and she can't speak for the millions of men on this planet and she is not a researcher or scientist so where is she getting this "hard-wired" non-sense from???

CC   August 5th, 2010 3:18 pm ET

We all know that most women suddenly decide they don't want sexual relations once they're married. Men have needs. Period. I've already told my fiance that if it ever happens that I lose my sex drive, he already has my permission to take a lover. If women wouldn't stop putting out, most men wouldn't need to stray. Let's be honest!

Chris   August 9th, 2010 7:56 pm ET

This strikes a very deep nerve in a lot of relationships. A lot of men do not want to “cheat” on their wives. A lot of women do not want to “cheat” on their husbands. And men or women are not hardwired to fail.
A more fundamental issue raised here is the limitations that relationships have and what happens when those limitations prevent the limited partner from fulfilling the other party and the other person is left unfulfilled. If one’s wife (or husband) becomes uninterested, physically distant in his or her spouse, the spouse that is not getting the attention has needs that are unmet. So how should those needs be met? If the unfulfilled spouse finds someone else to pay him or her some attention, the distant spouse is not being “cheated” or losing out of anything that he or she wants. If the unfulfilled spouse remains unfulfilled, is suffering quietly a better option. This “negotiated” infidelity is better understood as one way of dealing with the frailty and limitations of human relationships. Stereotyping men and women is not helpful or constructive.

OORLY   September 2nd, 2010 10:11 am ET

Yes, but the ability to control our urges makes us HUMAN.

I hope the man you end up with, would read this and enjoy his freedom. Cheers to that man, for finding the perfect women.

Tania   September 15th, 2010 4:24 pm ET

I am a monogamous woman but I agree with Holly (to an extent). I believe that it is natural for a man to want to sleep around but if a man is happy and fulfilled at home, he won't act on it. Ladies, wake up... if you are making your man feel like crap or you always have a "headache" and never want sex, he is going to look outside the relationship. Can you blame him??

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