November 17, 2009

Judge Strikes Down Christian License Plate

Posted: 03:46 PM ET

Bishop TD JAKES, tonight on Larry King Live 9pm ET

By Nathan Black | Christian Post Reporter

South Carolina's "I Believe" license plate that features an image of a cross in front of a stained-glass window has been ruled unconstitutional.

U.S. District Judge Cameron McGowan Currie said the specialty license plate was motivated by a purpose to advance a specific religion and has the effect of state endorsement of Christianity.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, praised the decision, commenting, "Government must never be allowed to express favored treatment for one faith over others. That’s unconstitutional and un-American."

State lawmakers had unanimously passed legislation last summer authorizing the plates. Republican Senator Lawrence K. Grooms, one of the sponsors of the bill, said he didn't see a constitutional problem with it, noting that the state issued plates with other religious symbols and phrases.

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Filed under: Larry King Live • Religion

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Cordy   November 17th, 2009 3:56 pm ET

I would like for Bishop Jakes to answer the following question. What to do when you are feeling depressingly hopeless and your believe in God is weak?

Thank you very much.

Jim Carroll   November 17th, 2009 4:21 pm ET

The main thing about being a republican is that you don't have
to be smart. All you have to do is be for nothing. You need to believe
that your debt and the Federal Government's debt is the same although you do not have the Constitutional authority to create money like the Federal government does and should. You need to falsely believe that we need a national debt and that we should borrow money from China that they create instead of creating our own. You must believe that we are still on a gold standard. You can't believe the truth that money must be created before equal value can be created. Since there are a number of different birds that can be taught to say nay, republicans could save the tax payers money by having the people who elect them to send birds to Washington DC instead of republicans.having the people who elect them to send birds to Washington DC instead of republicans.

A. Smith, Oregon   November 17th, 2009 5:20 pm ET

Greetings Larry, I love your show.

Larry, I doubt that a lot of viewers realize the horrific legacy of physical and cultural GENOCIDE which is directly associated with Christianity and the sign of the Christian Cross?

The Christian led genocide of the Native peoples in both North and South America so completely destroyed those people their numbers went from 6 million to less than 300,000 in a few years.

To many, waving the Christian Cross in their faces reminds them of the Genocide, mass murder and forced destruction of their cultures.

Raychil   November 17th, 2009 7:31 pm ET

I think that stinks!

Dodie ~ California   November 17th, 2009 10:08 pm ET

A. Smith

Great information and as always, good insight!

If you are able to have a cross, then you must also allow a star of David, a Wicca pentacle, Star and Crescent for Islam. So when will all this end??? Why must people go around broadcasting their religion?

Harold   November 17th, 2009 10:48 pm ET

Bishop Jakes is a great man of God full of wisdom.

Tremell   November 18th, 2009 1:39 am ET

I think he did an excellent job answering Larry's questions. Wow, I don't know if he had an idea beforehand what they were or he's just...GOOD.

Les   November 18th, 2009 1:55 am ET

what is your opinion of capital punishment?

Les   November 18th, 2009 1:56 am ET

Would Christ try to make alot of money if He was here now?

ckelly   November 18th, 2009 2:12 am ET

The empires of Britain, Spain and America destroyed millions of Indiginious people – more than Rome.

Man does evil first, foremost and above all else- AND THEN uses religion, resources, power, money and politics as his excuse.

Its called rationalized entitlement.

Ben Steele   November 18th, 2009 2:41 am ET

Hi Larry i enjoy your show, i enjoyed the interview you had with pastor T.D.Jakes, Larry for me,will you invite a seventh day adventist preacher on your show,i would love to hear what he has to say from the bible about the 7 day sabbath, if I'm not asking to much, i would love see two, a black an white preacher

Thanks Larry, you do a great interview with your guest


Ben Steele   November 18th, 2009 2:44 am ET

great show Layyr

Ben Steele   November 18th, 2009 2:47 am ET

Larry i spell your name wrong, you have a great show
please get a seventh day adventists preacher on your show


Ted   November 18th, 2009 12:17 pm ET

@ A. Smith,
you are absolutly right, however the process is not finished yet.
Christians were killing eachother for 30 years long in Irland, we had the 30 years war in Europe catholics fighting pretestants, the Crusades about a 1,000 years ago and even today the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have religious grounds.
Do you think if those countries were christian would we have these wars going? Not in my opinion!
Any christian, who opens his or her mouth to blame the moslems should read up on history.

ckelly   November 18th, 2009 2:04 pm ET

After the Battle of the Boyne-Britain ruled Ireland and oppressed the "Irish" for 800 years-it had nothing to do with religion-it was empire building for Britain as both countries were catholic...

Then, over time British Landlords settled and took land from Irish inhabitants and rented it back to them and when Elizabeth the 1st solidified the church of England as the True religion-the British landowners were therefore "protestant" and their starving Irish were "Catholics"-To this day your last name in Ireland tells your heritage which if Irish was Catholic and if British, is protestant.. The War in Ireland is therefore NOT about religion but your nationality or RACE or STATUS in Ireland. Britain took the Irish language away from the people; Britain took the culture and the bards too(story tellers, remenents of the ancient druids) and taxed their windows, sunlight, air you name it. During the potato famine, there were potatoes that made it to Britain for British consumption-but the British did not care if the whole country of Ireland starved.

The catholic church which was part of the Irish culture for 1000 years at the time of Henry, Mary and Elizabeth. It went underground to preserve the spirit of the Irish people and survived.

The fighting that went on between "Catholics and Protestants" in the 20th century was a class war and not a war in the religious sense-Catholics did not HATE protestants for their religious beliefs. Catholics hated the British for maintaining a class system of British Irish (now the protestants) and the Irish themselves (Catholic Irish)-Catholics, or the Irish, could not get a job, were brutalized by police and were living in slums...If your last name was Henderson you got the job but if your last name was Kelly you didn't.

Its time to realize that the statement about religion being the cause of all problems between people is false and has always been false. Men do evil things for power and then rationalize the reasons later.

A. Smith, Oregon   November 18th, 2009 2:12 pm ET

When another Pope was established in Constantinople (Turkish: İstanbul, historically also known as Byzantium) the Pope residing at the Vatican ordered his Army to kidnap that Pope. They proceeded to kidnap and murder that man along with around 1 MILLION women, children and men residing in Constantinople, all of whom regarded themselves as devout believers.

The overwhelming claim of lineage from Jesus to Pope, cannot possibly pass from a man that orders the horrific death of his spiritual competition along with 1 Million Innocent people to any Pope that followed as dictated in the Apostolic Succession.

There no doubt that horrific crime was a premeditated act of terrorism by the Pope upon the people in Turkeys largest city.

ckelly   November 18th, 2009 2:42 pm ET

@A smith-

You have illustrated my point-The empire of Rome was well in decline at that time. Religious beliefs and POLITICAL beliefs travelled with people without countries, such as the Jews and Chrisitians who were growing in huge numbers. These people travelled, the oppressed people, from country to country and with religion came RACE and status issues.

ROME now in ruins, became essentially the Vatican and took a new approach in its impirialistic strivings...that is, you don't have to take their land or conquer their peoples but you can concur souls anywhere.

and wars became about keeping power over the multitudes of Christians world wide...

But make no mistake-this is not religions fault...This is about building empires just as the many other cultures had done previously-using the same brutal tactics to extract control, power, money, slavery you name it...

The EVIL Man is evil first, and uses what ever excuse to justify his lust for power and control.

Joe G. (Illinois)   November 18th, 2009 2:43 pm ET

A shoe box is a shoe box like just a shoe box.. But that doesn’t stop people from using them as they please. Yesterday I read somewhere that Carrie Prejean is “Biblically correct” according to a woman who a while back had released a pornographic video of herself. Today.. Well

A. Smith, Oregon   November 18th, 2009 3:28 pm ET

Greetings Larry King,

I love your show. Your skill as a interviewer is extremely professional and well polished. At times, its easy for someone so gifted to simply go thru a habitual routine, but when you push yourself Larry, you elevate the discussion and the insights of the viewers to new levels. Thank-You!

The crass and extremely offensive use of bumper stickers praying for the death of President Obama is FAR beyond the acceptable boundary's of freedom of expression.

Christian organizations, and churches that are responsible thru supplying those teddy bears, bumper stickers and spewing that hate speech from their pulpits should immediately have their tax free protection removed.

Shame on the Fox News Network, Bill O'Reily, Glenn Beck and those self-titled Christian leaders that have pumped up the number of violent threats against President Obama some 400%.

Promoting the death of President Obama by quoting bible verses purporting that, is a utterly disgusting use of the freedom of speech under the guise of freedom of religion.

@ckelly, yes I agree, it is not the Creator directing people to do evil. It is the voluntary choice by people to do evil. It is truly appalling for self-titled religious leaders to chose to do evil themselves and then tell their followers that is what the Creator wanted or told them to do.

Sadly, that excuse appears to be widely and often used to deflect obvious charges of Genocide, Corruption and Crimes against Humanity.

ckelly   November 18th, 2009 3:47 pm ET

Yes, Hatred has its own psychology.

Religion has been manipulated by evil doers. However, religion has also done much good too. It is a gift and a responsibility-Like anything else, it is the manipulation of religion just like money, or leadership that is evil not the religion, leadership or money itself.

unfortunately, in this day and age its too fashionable to drive religion into the ground by making it the source of evil-just as the powerful want it!!!

without morality and relative beliefs anything can pass as acceptable-mass destruction, science without ethics, NO culture-or capitalistic culture only ; and lnternational law superceding national laws and values.

Ted   November 19th, 2009 2:01 pm ET

God did not create religions – human beings did it for their own purpose! Religions never brought peace or good to any nation, because each of them is trying to convince the others that their way of looking at and calling God is the only true way and this caused arguments, fights and wars!

All religions are based on superstition, believing something to be supernatural if they cannot understand it.
Early human being worshiped lightning, the wind, the sun, because they were beyond their comprehension. Today you would have to be an idiot to pray to the sun or the wind.
Religions are just like political parties, it represents your views of something. Just like political parties, they all pretend to be the correct enlightment.
We would be a better world if we lived by ethic without the hocus-pocus of supernatural being whom nobody can describe, nobody ever seen, but used to scare people and to get rich.
Like Rev. Jake or that Osterman couple.
The Bible was written by jewish humans who tried to create a history for their own people. All around them were large empires. Egypt, Assyria, Mesopotamia, Persia with long glorious histories, so they wrote their Juda history that never happened and called it the voice of God.
What happened to the capital of King David with 40,000 soldiers? No trace can be found. That city would have had at least 250,000 residents, in the middle of a desert? With no water to drink?
Joseph and the jews in Egypt? No trace can be found. Etc., etc.

ckelly   November 19th, 2009 4:27 pm ET


We are beings who have always believed in the supernatural and the possibilities of what we can only imagine.

It is through this ability to contemplate the unknowable that science was made possible and your reference to ethics. If we were not beings willing to contemplate the unknowable or only the possible-there would be no philosophy or ethics either.

We are each consciousness having an experience. That consciousness is both knowable and unknowable and God is as good a name as any.

I work in Mental Health with children. I see no more religion in the homes of these kids as most of their parents were raised without religion. In two generations we have mental health problems of epidemic proportions.

The adolesnet brain that is not grounded in a religious belief system in early years stuggles when it reaches 14. The brain changes as "formal operations" capacity is developed. Morality and matters of "Life and death" become confusing concepts-without a relative social container. Obsession with death and nothingness and the pointlessness of it all is common in teens without family religious practices. They actually begin to ask about God while in treatment..

The other's kids we see: Well life and morality has no meaning to them." I AM " is all that matters: If I want to kill someone? So what? If I am cruel to other's so what? Its all relative anyway.

Our laws, ethcis and secular beliefs about morality are based on 5000 years of Judeo-Christian beliefs and values whether we accept religion or not.

We do not see many (if any) religious kids (of any faith as vancouver is so diverse) in our mental health centers...

Once religious beliefs and practices go-anything (ethics, values, etc) can be rationalized-usually to the highest bidder.

Although evil men in power have manipulated religion and religious practices through the ages to their own benefit-the practice of religion is as important to the civilzation and well being of its people as any government, law or other institution.

A. Smith, Oregon   November 19th, 2009 5:46 pm ET

@ckelly, A interesting thought, however Christian leaders routinely stole and then used many religious dietys which they then adopted for their own use, much like the Egyptian pharaohs did previously.

Examples which you can of course chose to not follow:
Monday : specifically named after the Goddess of the Moon
Tuesday: specifically named after Twes the God of Mars and War
Wednesday: specifically named after Woden, the God of Wisdom
Thursday: specifically named after Thor, the God of Thunder and Lightening
Friday: specifically named after Freya, the God of Love
et al.

If you follow any of the names of the week, then you are ergo following what you term, 'blatant pagan Gods and Goddess's'.

There is ample evidence that early Christian leaders deliberately worked to change Jesus into a God of the Sun specifically to substitute Jesus for a Pagan Sun God that was very popular at that time.

ckelly   November 19th, 2009 6:29 pm ET

Whether we recognized, worshipped the stars or navigated by the stars is irrelevant to the question of how language adopted our cultural idioms. It does... the roots of all our words have cultural and nationalistic meaning-our language is a product of our history and culture and our culture a product of our language.

BUT, practically and realistically, we don't NEED blatant statues in public buildings (and they are every where-no one questions them) if we are going to remove certain culturally significant symbolism from government (ie religious symbolism) then we must remove ALL statues and religious symbolism. Get the decorators in: simple solution.

All religious rites and practices have similar practices and mythology among all religions-they all overlap and yet each is unique at the same time. Just as all humans develop in a predetermined way and we have many more similarities than differences-yet each human is unique...each story is his own.

The story of Jesus Christ is the unique story of Jesus Christ. Whether his story shares similarities and differences with Egypt's Horus or India's Gods does not disqualify or reinforce the reality of Jesus Christ of Christianity-Jesus Christ in history and scripture is not the same as Horus...

There are so many books out there arguing anything-you can believe what you want..

Ted   November 20th, 2009 11:48 am ET

@ ckelly and A. Smith,

you are both right and also wrong, because your perception depends on your viewpoint!
An ant looking at a human being finds it huge, an elephant is not impressed by our stature.
A. Smith, you quote the names of old germanic Gods, because the english languare belongs to the germanic family and we called the days after them. A greek or a chinese do not use our defination.

The point I did try to make is simple; you can believe in God, but refuse an organized religion. If God is all over than why do we have to go to church to pray to him?
Simple, then we can pay our oboluos to the person who always profits from that ceremony, the priest or pastor or rabbi!
Why is it a sin for a catholic to visit a protestant service although they are both christians?
Because then you pay your oboluos at the wrong place.

ckelly   November 20th, 2009 2:58 pm ET

Ted-you are all over the place in your thinking!!

First or all-Whether its German or French or Italian or Chinese is irrelevant because the 7 days of the week ARE based on the seven understood planets at the time he week was identified. I am not sure of the whole development of the week in China-but I can assure you its been seven days for about 300 years anyway (When the Impirialist Brits and the India Tea company set out to make the Chinese a nation of heroine addicts.) Our language reflects our culture-including religious culture.

Secondly, It is NOT a sin for a Catholic to attend a protestant or Jewish or Hindu or Buddhist or any religion's service or ceremony.

Quit spreading lies and hatred about religion-yes there has definately been some bad people who have manipulated religion (like anything else) but the purpose of religion is not bad.

A. Smith, Oregon   November 20th, 2009 4:45 pm ET

@ckelly, Long before Jesus of Nazareth was ever conceived, the neighboring Babylonians celebrated the infant savior of the world, Tammuz.

There is absolutely no mention of any recorded religion which contains the transmutation of wine and bread into the body of a deity, EXCEPT in the theology of the High Priest of the Babylonian Sun God Bael and much later in the Christian depiction of the last supper by Jesus of Nazareth.

It certainly appears that Christian monks plagiarized the Babylonian theology and inserted it as their own story. The Christian monks appeared to have plagiarized word for word, and wrote in Jesus in the place of Bael for their story.

Like all Sun Gods, they die each Winter Solstice and are reborn on Dec. 21st., the Winter Solstice. The Babylonian High Priest passed out wine and bread telling the faithful to eat for the infant savior of the world, Tammuz would be reborn as a result.

The Babylonian mystery however is FULL-CIRCLE, meaning you can follow precisely the cycle of life and death being taught and followed. The Plagiarized Christian snippet however couldn't include the full cycle of the Deity living and dieing each year and it clearly shows a incomplete fragment was inserted without full understanding of the Babylonian mystery from which it came.

Ted   November 21st, 2009 1:57 pm ET

@ ckelly and A. Smith,
this discussion is getting way over my head, I am not a professor of theological history. You both are more informed and I appreciate that.

I grew up in a catholic family, as a 10 years old went to the protestan service with my best friend, our priest found out and really gave me hell telling me it is a sin!! So do not correct me on something that you do not know. That was a long time ago and things have changed during the last decades, however the catholic church operated that way for almost 1,900 years!!!
My advise to you is to leave the philosophy for a while and read up on the history of the Vatican and the church it is running. It is not what they say, but what they do.

ckelly   November 21st, 2009 2:58 pm ET

Well Ted-your priest was wrong! I also went to Mass every Sunday (devoutly Irish Catholic family) and my father was a Knights Member 50 years when he died. All my relatives in Ireland are Catholic except for the Hendersons who are Luthern. When I grew up my little friends in the neighborhood attended Presbyterian churches but went to Catholic school in Ontario. The church had no problems with this and certainly had no problem with my brother and I attending the occasional church service with our little Ted your priest was wrong-this is not the Catholic church's stance.

Here in Vancouver the diocese has allowed the Tibetan Monks to use one of the churches not being used regularly for mass for their services, rituals etc and welcomed the Monks.

ckelly   November 21st, 2009 3:27 pm ET

@ Anne

Once again-lets not confuse the facts here-Tammuzz was a god of Agriculture. He was sometimes shown as an infant but not always-he was a god connected primarily with agriculture, then spring; he had consorts and was also connected with fertility (spring, fields and agriculture)-because he was sometimes symbolized as an infant does not mean Jesus Christs story is not uniquely his own....Tammuz was not born in Bethlehem of the lineage of David etc-he was not a living man...he did not travel for three years throughout Jerusalem-etc Its not the same story...

Yes, the Roman Church did borrow dates to create Christian festivals ie December 25 which is the old date for the solstice or Dies Natalis Solis Invicti-the date of the "Unconquered Sun" Roman holiday.

BUT!!! A SMITH-while there might be a similar or an odd exact detail here and there between ANY story on earth-that does not makeall stories plagerisms of each other. The Jesus story is the Jesus story.

What I have often wondered about is: Why, if there are similar stories between Egyptians and Babylonians (who stories really are similar), Why do you not look for a common source there? Who was before the Egyptions and Babylonians? India also has many similar stories. Were they just borrowing from each other through antiquity-or were the themes of fertiltiy, life and death, war, sun and shadow-common human experiences in all cultures...YES!!! The Collective unconscious...they never needed to steal, borrow, or use other cultures stories because their languages were different for one...And because there own Gods and beliefs were built on similar human needs and experiences...

Jesus Christ is a man who came lived and resurrected about two thousand years don't have to believe that but your "proof" is ridiculous. To say he didn't exist because of a babylonian or Egyptian fertility god who was symbolized as a child-or another story similarity- is not a good use of logic. it is very "fashionable" to use history this way, in this day and age, to make a mish mash of facts and truths.

A. Smith, Oregon   November 21st, 2009 4:46 pm ET

The Pope as the Christian leader is intimately involved with The Christian Priest and his deplorable band of followers that set fire to the Library of Alexandria which contained so many books and parchments from all over the world, the fire burned for a full 7 days and nights.

As a reward the Pope beatified that Priest after making him a Bishop. Yes the Christian Leader made that disgusting morass of a human being a SAINT!!!

In one of the greatest crimes against all humanity on Earth, Christians burned the entire recorded history of distant humanity rather than permit that history to be revealed.

Christian monks and well-wishers since have constantly attempted to cover up their involvement in the burning of the library of Alexandria by publishing any number of false trails and finger pointing. Perhaps they all realized that they had gone far beyond the boundary's of civilized behavior.

Christianity and only Christianity did not want the actual ancient history of humanity to be the accepted and have their version rejected. They believed by utterly destroying those documents and substituting their ancient history doctrines, people would have no choice but accept their doctrine and thereby their religion.

A. Smith, Oregon   November 21st, 2009 5:03 pm ET

@ckelly, I wasn't using the similarity's of the thuregy of the High Priest of Bael with the near identical wording found in the transmutation of the bread and wine in the christian story of the last supper, as any proof that Jesus of Naz never existed. What I stated was that it appeared that Christian Monks that wrote the Christian Storys some 300 years after the main characters had died, appeared to have plagiarized the transmutation of the bread and wine which is a large money maker for the Christian Churches to this day.

There does not appear to be any evidence of the 10 such plagues upon Egypt which the Jewish Clans and Christianity place upon the Creator as causing. NO ONE seems to consider how evil and wrong it would be to murder all of the first born children thru out an entire nation and then attribute that to the Creator as doing that! That is utterly disgusting and so completely lacking in even the barest of understanding of the Creator's relationship with all humanity, its beyond any subjective review.

There does appear to be many young babys that were murdered and dumped into mass graves at about the time that Jesus of Naz was reputed to have been born. If that was as the Christian Monks would have people believe that the King was actively seeking to murder that young child and had sent his entire army out to make certain that occurred, the greatest story of how he escaped unharmed and how he was not later hunted down was never written in the Christian bible. Soldiers that murdered their own infants would have not stopped for bribes or anything short of divine intervention in murdering that child and his parents.

Dodie   November 21st, 2009 7:48 pm ET


I completely disagree with you.

The purpose of religion may not be bad for those who believe in it, however, it has been used as an instrument of cultural genocide to many indigenous people around the world who were viewed by the christian religion as pagans.

You stated: "The adolescent brain that is not grounded in a religious belief system in early years struggles when it reaches 14."

Where are you obtaining this information? The adolescent struggle is often due to the changes in hormonal levels complicated by the break down of the family unit.

Also during the adolescent years, our brains are changing radically similar to when we were around age 2 or 3. This has everything to do with neuropeptides and neurochemistry and absolutely nothing to do with religion!

If I expressed these ideas with any of my colleagues, I would be laughed out of the clinic.

What is your operational definition of "religious belief system"?

Dodie   November 21st, 2009 8:08 pm ET

@ Ted

I am with you on that philosophy. God was made by humans due to our need. And I am definitely Not a professor of theologically.

10 years of age is a very vulnerable age for anyone. It must have been frightening for you to experience what your priest expressed. That must have had a profound impact on you.

We are all an accumulation of our life experiences.

Ted   November 22nd, 2009 1:10 pm ET

Now this is the discussion I like, with brain. Thanks to all of you who participated.

ckelly, you are a devote catholic and were brain washed and you closed your eyes to the obvious facts. As I stated before, Jesus was a common name in Palestina 2,000 years ago and there is absolutly no proof that a person ever existed as described by the Bible. You must be more than naive to believe all those supernatural wonders he supposedly done.
There were a lot of Jesuses and a few may have been crucified by the romans, it was their favorit way to put someone away!
The greek, the german and the roman mythology is full of Gods, so why is the jewish God the only real one? I am sure you do not believe in Jupiter, Mars, Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Athena, Odin, etc.

A. Smith, you are a library full of information and open to other thoughts than the fashionable born again christian, like Bush was.
He forgot what the Bible says, those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Dodie, thank for your sympathy.

I just read the news on CNN that a bishop refused something to a Kennedy, because of his views on abortion!!!!!

Ted   November 22nd, 2009 2:01 pm ET


I repeat my previous statement, do read up on the history of the Vatican and the catholic church.

The church was a bloody dictator for well over 1,800 years, burning those who commited heresy, speak, did not follow the orders of the Vatican blindly. The inquisition killed hundreds of thousands of christians, mostly through beastly torture.
Popes were killed, poisoned, a 19 years old Pope BOUGHT the seat with money and favours to the cardinals and was celebrating orgies with several women at a time. The Borgia pope had a mistress and seven children, etc. etc. The mafia is a troop of boyscouts compaired to what the Vatican did over the centuries.

Yes, each religion bought some good, but so did Hitler, he built the german Autobahns. Stalin brought Russia into the 20th century by eliminating well over 12 million of his own citizens, a very high price to pay for the progress.
You say what Stalin has to do with religion?

Jews had a great idea 2,000 years ago, they created christianity and tried to cash in on it. Please remember, all figures in the Bible are jewish, the apostols are jewish, and the first pope also. However, it was highjacked from them by others, who saw the merit of controlling such a great enterprise.
So the jews created another religion 1,800 years later, the communism. Again, Karl Marx, Engels, Lenin, Troztki, etc were all jewish and had a great idea. Communism is also a quasi religion, believing in the good in all people without any big brother watching from upstairs. The idea has merits, however is very naive and cannot work with human beings.
So again Stalin killed Lenin, took over the position of the pope in communism and spread the word around. Just like christianity it went from good to bad to worse and ended up as a bloody dictatorship.

Any devote communist would be just as upset about my presentation of their cause as you are about the catholic church.
By the way, I do not like to be called a lier.

Dodie   November 22nd, 2009 10:50 pm ET

@ Ted

The problem with this trend of conversation is that it is all based on a “belief system” which may or may not be accurate. We all perceive and organize the world in ways that best helps us. Even when discussing history, we are relying on those who were before us to be somewhat accurate in their documentation. Some people see the need to believe in something greater; hence, the term “god” to answer the unknown. I do not need to have an explanation of the unknown. I am fine with not knowing. We are newcomers to this universe and are no more special or greater than other living beings. The issue regarding death is an existential issue.

I study under a Taiji (Tai Chi) and Qi Gong Master from China who also happens to be a traditional Chinese Medical Doctor. He made a very profound statement to me a couple of years ago. He said:

“If you do not believe in a god or religion, your past experiences will impact you now.

If you believe in a god or religion, then not only your past experiences will impact you; also, your fear of the future (going to heaven or hell) will impact you.

There are 2 billion people in China. Their children are healthy emotionally, far better than the US. Apx 40% do not believe in anything (atheist) and apx. 60% are Buddhist, Confucianism or Taoist. Both the Buddhist and Taoist do not believe in a “god” The Buddhists believe that the “god idea” has its origin in fear. Taoist believe in a natural bond between everything in the universe but it is not a god. It is more akin to pure energy and keeping a balance presented by the yin and yang.

Ted, there are people who have the “gift” of being able to use their ability in language acquiescence in order to intimidate, equivocate or obtrude their belief system on others. They are usually the ones who lose. Because of their gifts, they do not really listen to others. This is something I can spot very quickly as that is my own survival for being very dyslexic.

Ted   November 23rd, 2009 10:28 am ET

@ Dodie,

Amen! (an old hebrew word meaning it should be so)!

ckelly   November 23rd, 2009 5:57 pm ET

Ted-The official Roman church was around for 1600 years

Men before religion have always butchered!!!!!!In the name of rreligion, imperialism; land,oil and resources..Rome killed the Christians and the Jews before there was a Vatican.

you are making no sense-is that plain enough english for you?

ckelly   November 23rd, 2009 6:07 pm ET

@ Dodie and A Smith

Religion is not the cause of man's violence towords man-man uses religion, power and wealth as excuses to take from others and harm others-the psychology of hatred may use religion but its source is not religion-mans fear is.

@ Dodie,

Children who have a sense of a greater power or that God exists and have had parents who have engaged them in both family traditions and community related to spirituality; Children who have there own belief systems about life after death.

It is not a matter of hormonal changes only but rapid brain development that cause teens to think abstractly, In my experience teens who have no previous belief system and family support related to this suffer during adolescence with existential issues. If a teen wants to throw off his family's belief system and come up with his own beliefs-great!!! His ability to consider abstract concepts and points of view and come up with a belief system in line with his identity, is natural and normal-

kids who are not allowed to do this or have no concept in life after death or God or community support (often through churches in most large communities) have a hard time and I have seen them many, many times over my 20 years as a clinical therapist working with teens.

Dodie   November 23rd, 2009 6:53 pm ET

@ ckelly

Yes, thank you for reinforcing my discussions on hormonal changes, rapid brain development and a strong family unit. Your point on Cultural norms is very important which helps to stabelize children.

The relationship they have with their parents "perceived or in the role of a parent" is by far the most important. In china, religion does not exist for most. Many children are quite healthy as they have that strong bond with their family and culture. There is no need for religion.

I cannot speak for Canada; however, in the USA one of the major problems parents are facing is that both parents are working to support the family due to our economic times and someone else is raising their children. This is having a devistating affect on our children as many are dealing with abandonment issues. Many of our children here are experiencing detachment disorders and look elsewhere to find their identity...

I understand, religion has been a huge factor in your life. However, everyone is different! If you were never raised around any religion or having no religion in your family unit, you would not feel the need for it.

It is all a matter of perspective!

Dodie   November 23rd, 2009 7:09 pm ET

@ ckelly

Some of us actually do not have the Existential fears.. Some of us do not need to feel there is life after death. If you believe there is no life after death you become more 'Gestault' The power of the present!

ckelly   November 24th, 2009 10:37 am ET

Yes Dodie-and both of us are adults.Most 14 year olds are not that sophisticated.

I KNOW everyone is different-but you (and other regular posters) make it difficult sometimes for anyone to speak positively about their experiences with religion-especially if it isn't an eastern or esoteric experience. Its sad to see everything about Christianity spoken so negatively by people who are obviously intelligent and travelled.
In my experience it hasn't been all negative. I have also travelled and know that Hind's and Buddhists in the antiquity used to war and butcher each other too-But I do not blame Imperialism on religion although I recognize how all religions are used by Men and KIngs/Queens in power.

I am probably best described as a Christian who has no problem seeing God in all religions and expressions of spirituality-including nature, the arts and community.

I agree the destruction of the family (or lack of support for it) is a big factor here too. I know every parent or adult in this day and age is under assault-too much work, the economy, the environment and health, loss of communities, neighborhoods, religion and religious practices, transience (moving constantly)-its hard for parents to parent.

ckelly   November 24th, 2009 10:46 am ET

For Dodie: edited to make sense.

Yes Dodie-and both of us are adults.Most 14 year olds are not that sophisticated.

I KNOW everyone is different-but you (and other regular posters) make it difficult sometimes for anyone to speak positively about their experiences with religion-especially if it isn't an eastern or esoteric experience. Its sad to see everything about Christianity spoken so negatively by people who are obviously intelligent and travelled.
In my experience it hasn't been all negative. I have also travelled and know that Hindu's and Buddhists in the antiquity (Ankor Wat for example) used to war and butcher each other too-But I do not blame Imperialism on religion although I recognize how all religions are used by men and KIngs/Queens in power.

I am probably best described as a Christian who has no problem seeing God in all religions and expressions of spirituality-including nature, the arts and community.

I agree the destruction of the family (or lack of support for it) is a big factor here too. I know every parent or adult in this day and age is under assault-too much work, the economy, the environment and health, loss of communities, neighborhoods, religion and religious practices, transience (moving constantly)-its hard for parents to parent. People are disconnected from their cultures and for most of man's history, his religious beliefs and practices have been a large part of his culture.

Ted   November 24th, 2009 12:41 pm ET


we are not talking about the romans, the persians, or the egyptions killing their enemies, but


Is that plain enough for you?

Dodie   November 24th, 2009 2:13 pm ET


Yes, I have seen a lot of negativity posted about Christianity on these blogs. People have had some horrible experiences. You certainly have a right to your belief systems, whatever they may be. I am sure your experience with the church has been a good one. I do not think anyone is questioning or challenging that.

When I was reading your blogs, they were filled with inferences that children cannot be stable without religion. I was only pointing out the fact, based on my education, travels, and reading, that this was a false statement. As discussed earlier regarding adolescence, there are numerous problems both biological and environmental that are causing confusion and instability with teens. The perceived “parent object” or lack of; for whatever reason, is the biggest problem creating many disorders in the teens.

You are absolutely correct. Christianity is in China. I live in China one – two months every year. I have a home there in China and have seen one church in the city I live. You are absolutely correct regarding the classifying of religions as cults. The Chinese government views religions as being very dogmatic and problematic. They prefer the children to focus on their 5,000 years of cultural history and not our religion.

Because Religion is human based, meaning it is run by people and we are anything but perfect, there will always be problems regardless of the religion.

Sometimes when we discuss concepts and experiences from our heart, we become a little sensitive. I apologize if you feel I have offended you. It was not my intention.

A. Smith, Oregon   November 24th, 2009 5:25 pm ET


You stated, 'Religion is not the cause of man's violence towords man-man uses religion, power and wealth as excuses to take from others and harm others-the psychology of hatred may use religion but its source is not religion-mans fear is.'

Wrong, if some wacko spouted his rage and urges to anyone that listened, very few if any would take that as 'gospel' and go out and with assurances they were doing their 'gods' work, do it.

Christian Priests that repeated raped hundreds of young boys, specifically got away with that horrific crime specifically because they were Christian Priests overseeing those children and the children did not turn in their Christian Priest as a serial predator.

Religious Priests, Popes, Immans, Mullahs, Ministers, Clerics, Bishops, Cardinals routinely voice trigger verses which precisely incite their followers to go forth and commit violent crimes under the stated protection and assurances that their 'god' wants them to do those violent crimes and horrific actions.

Wacko's spewing out hate speech are routinely rounded up and dealt with world-wide. Wacko's hiding under the guise of self-titled spokesperson's of their deity are freely using trigger verses calling for the death of President Obama, among other individuals.

One psycho-babble Christian organization is even selling teddy bears and bumper stickers with Christian trigger verses calling for the death of President Obama. That ckelly would entirely be illegal under State and Federal US Law, if it was simply a individual stating that.

ckelly   November 24th, 2009 6:15 pm ET

Enough said!

Wackos come in many forms some are religious-some are not!!

Bye guys!

Dodie   November 27th, 2009 2:23 pm ET

@ A. Smith and Ted

You both are going to love this! I just heard that CNN will be doing a story on the molesting of children for decades by the Catholic church in "Ireland" Talk about synchronicity!

Those of you that are IRISH CATHOLIC....better get a grip!!!

Thank you CNN for making even more public, the incredible Atrocities to children in the name of religion!!!

A. Smith, Oregon   November 27th, 2009 6:52 pm ET


I look forward to the expose' being aired. The CNN producers should include illegal inroads by the Vatican meeting with Conde Rice who directly relayed their request to Bush jr. and there to 'his' US Justice Department which immediately acted to not allow long standing criminal suits against the Catholic Church to regain monetary damages from the Vatican itself.

There appears to be a clear and present course of action directed by the Vatican where Priests that were serial predators and complaints against them of multiple rape cases were raise, they were moved to unsuspecting congregations where those same serial predators continued sexually abusing more young boys and girls.

The current Pope, immediately pulled the Portland, Oregon Bishop when it came to light that he had moved a serial predator to a unsuspecting congregation after allegations were filed. That Bishop was moved to the Vatican and given the Pope's former job.

Priests convicted of molesting and raping young boys and girls in their care should be sentenced with special circumstances which have a long standing legal tradition. Guilty with special circumstances routinely results in 3x the general sentencing.

We may never know how many thousands of boys and girls were repeatedly raped by their Christian Priests, Ministers and Preachers because of their fear to turn them in.

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