April 8, 2009

ICYMI: Osteens on LKL last night talking about Obama, same-sex marriage

Posted: 07:42 AM ET

Joel Osteen is the senior pastor for the Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas. It's America's largest congregation. His wife, Victoria Osteen, is the co-pastor there.

The Osteens, known for their optimistic outlook on life, were on LKL last night and we talked about President Obama, same-sex marriage, the recent outbreak of mass shootings, the state of religion in America and more. Here's a part of the interview:

Larry King: Since you were last on, we have sworn in our first African-American president. What are your impressions [of Barack Obama]?

Joel Osteen: Well, I think he's doing a great job. I'm impressed with his skill, his calmness, his just strength under pressure. These are tough times for him.

King: And you, Victoria?

Victoria Osteen: I've been really impressed. In fact, I've been impressed [with] the first lady. She stepped up, and she's done a remarkable job.

King: Recent polls show 12 percent of Americans still believe Obama is a Muslim, and 35 percent say they don't know his religion, but to most of them it don't matter. Should it matter?

Joel Osteen: Well, it matters to me. It matters to me that I know he loves the Lord, and I think it's important that he has convictions from his faith. So to me, it matters when I'm making my personal decisions.

King: Does it matter to you, Victoria?

Victoria Osteen: It does. It matters to me. ... I believe he is a Christian.


Filed under: Joel Osteen • Larry King Live

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Kay DeWitt   April 8th, 2009 9:04 am ET

I do not agree with Joel's answer to Larry's question as to whether or not Christianity is in the decline because while Joel's answer to this question was in the negative, mine is in the affirmative...because so much of Christendom is guilty of preaching what the apostle Paul would deem to be "another gospel" and, therefore, what we have, in reality, is a Christless Christianity and, therefore, a powerless Christianity that is having less and less influence in the world! The real Jesus said, "if you would be My disciple, pick up your CROSS and follow Me", and, since picking up one's cross is about dying to self...
and since the "self" never WANTS to die...that is the answer to one of Larry's other questions that he posed to Joel as to whether or not a "little suffering is good for the soul"...because one cannot be a Christian WITHOUT suffering, but, you see, herein lies the problem
...Christians don't want to suffer any more than the "world" does...
which is why they preach the "good" life, rather than the "abundant" life, which is the kind of life Christ said He came to give us! I'd give ANYTHING to have the privilege of answering some of the questions Larry has about Christianity...and the Bible...because I can understand why he has them...because Christendom has made such a mockery of Christ...and biblical truth...that Larry knows something does not add up, but, he cannot go beyond that "intellectual" discern-ment to know what the problem is because he does not have the "spiritual" discernment that is necessary to know what the problem is!!!

Gerald Stinnett   April 8th, 2009 9:28 am ET

Hasn't anyone else noticed how swishy and gay Joel is? Did he take the cure? I'm gay too and I was married for 31 years and have two sons by my lesbian wife. That was the only way for gays to have a family in the 60's. Things are different today. We don't have to play games. We should be able to be open about our sexuality and the person we fall in love with. We should be able to marry that person too. Let the Church have Holy Matrimony and the State a Marriage License...make a distinction here. Joel's ideas on gay marriage is not the "Hope for Today". Oh well, just like Ted Haggart, Joel and all the other money grubbing preachers will be outed and their sins will be "shouted from the house tops".

Kay DeWitt   April 8th, 2009 9:49 am ET

I would have also answered Larry's question to Joel...about what he thought about all the "shootings"...a little differently than Joel did because I would have grabbed this opportunity to explain not only the "why" behind the shootings, but also the "why" behind the Anna Nicole Smiths...the Britney Spears...etc...In other words, why do the people who have everything the "world" tells us we need to be "happy""success"...wind up on drugs or committing suicide?
The answer is because what they do not know is that God made us as tri-dimensional beings who possess not only a body and soul, but also a spirit (the "soul" is our mind, will, and emotions)...and that, like what is true of man's body and soul...that God so ordained them to have legitimate "needs" is equally true that God also ordained that man's spirit would also have legitimate "needs"...that can only be fulfilled with the things of God...and that fulfillment begins by man's dead spirit being "born again" by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In the very beginning of the Bible, God tested man (Adam & Eve) to see if he would walk in obedience to Him and He warned man that if he did NOT obey Him that "in that day" he disobeyed "he would surely die" .. well, Adam & Eve disobeyed God and, while they lived on many more years after they disobeyed what died "in that day" they disobeyed was their "spirit" and every human being born since inherits this "dead" spirit...Scripture calls Jesus the "second Adam" because He passed the test the first Adam failed and, because He did, He opened the way so that man could again have what the first Adam alive spirit that could "know" cannot know God with his "intellect"...
because God ordained it that one can only "know" Him with a spirit that has been "born again"..a word that Christ used despite how Christians have used, and abused, that word and what it really means
...So, for those like Anna Nicole Smith...yes, even Elvis Presley...what they needed... to fill the "void" that one "feels" when the needs of one's spirit are not being fulfilled... is to have their dead spirits brought to life
...with the "abundant" life NOT the "good" life...but they did not know that this is what they needed and, because they had everything the "world" tells us we need to be "happy", there were no more
"myths" left and so they felt there was no answer to the pain that was caused by the inexplicable void that nothing could fill...Interestingly, those who do NOT have it "all" can be less inclined to commit sui-
cide because, thinking that more money, or more "success", is the answer to their unhappiness they will be motivated to pursue these goals...Therefore, I guarantee you, if one were truly spiritually healthy .. as defined by the apostle Paul when he said that he considered everything...of rubbish compared to the "surpassing great-ness of 'knowing' Christ Jesus" would not find this one shooting, because one such as this is willing to die for others...
because that is real Christianity!!!

Sissy Gray   April 8th, 2009 10:03 am ET

This probably won't post but I'll share it anyway for my own heart's rest. Mr. Osteen's ministry greatly inspired me until on Larry King he stated that only male/female marriage should be allowed, that only this was "God's Best", and gay couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt for the same reason. So I'm lost again. If not for a gay couple I would've NEVER had a family. They raised me on love AND FAITH. Should children be left parentless because only "gay" people want them? What if that's their only opportunity for parental love as it was for me and many others? My aunt is raising children alone, her husband left. They're WONDERFUL children, but according to the Osteens they don't have the BEST because there's no man? Or a "father only" family doesn't have the best yet many fathers are surviving it BECAUSE of their faith in God? It frightens me the judgment Christian leaders think they're allowed. God made Mr. Olsteen a vessel, I believe that, but God said "JUDGE NOT", so keep teaching people to love God and have faith but let our Heavenly Father be the judge of what's "his best". He takes care of MY parents too, they were HIS GIFT to a lonely abandoned and abused child and I believe God also sees US as one of "his best" and we continue to love and honor him. Because of Christian leaders views I've watched my parents, together LONGER than the Osteens, cry at not being able to legally seal their bond for themselves, and as an example to the daughter they love that nobody else wanted. How sad.

john battista   April 8th, 2009 10:28 am ET

Once again, the Osteens prove themselves to be just another narrow minded pair of religious leaders refusing to accept and love people for who they are. When the Osteens say "God's best" is a marriage between a man and a woman, they are revealing how small and narrow minded they really are. If they believe God loves us all, then for gosh sake, have the insight and intelligence to just leave it at that. Instead, they insist on applying a manmade rule book that judges makes lesser of people who should simply be left alone to determine their own fate and live their lives as they see fit. This is why I can't stand religious leaders – they harbor so much hatred and divisiveness under the "word of god". None of them have the courage and conviction to be inclusive. In my book, that makes me, a married heterosexual non-church going male a hell of a lot "holier" than the Osteens will ever be.

dan in Tucson   April 8th, 2009 10:31 am ET

As long as they don't try to ram their narrow minded beliefs on anyone else, they have a right to live the way they want. Its when people like this try to force their way of life on the rest of us is when I have an issue with them. America stands for freedom, which includes religious freedom. That also means freedom from religion as well.

Steve   April 8th, 2009 10:32 am ET

Why do you insist on having the Osteens on your show? This is the second time that I have seen him on your show. We know that he is very biased against same sex marriage. Clearly neither of the Osteens do not state why they are biased against homosexuals other then that is there stance. The last time he on your show he stumbled with his words and could not express himself. The same appeared evident last night. Why should we continue to show Americans how biggoted the Osteens are? Why should we encourage giving advertising to his church? IT is because of people like him that we have hate for homosexuals in America.

john battista   April 8th, 2009 10:38 am ET

After seeing the Osteens on Larry King last night, it's apparent, after hearing their views of God, same sex marriage and adoption, that they just happen to be "happier religious bigots" than their contemporaries. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sharon   April 8th, 2009 11:12 am ET

Obviously Joel Osteen wasn't called to preach by God to preach the truth but only to deceive those that follow him. Mr. Osteen was asked a simple question by Larry King in regards to the gay marriage verdict being overturned in Vermont. Mr. Osteen played dumb as if he didn't understand what Larry was asking him when it was clear as mud. He side step the question and choose not to show Larry in the Bible what God clearly says about Homosexuals and Marriage between a male and female.

God clearly put male and female together in marriage to be joined as one and pro create, not male and male nor female and female. These are the list of scriptures in the old and new testament condemning homosexuals and their fate. It also speaks of other sins that apply to those who choose to disobey God and reject his son. Leveticus 18:22; 20;13, Genesis 18:20-21; 19:4-7; Romans 1:26-27 and First Timothy 1:8-10.

Joel Osteen has also said in another interview with Larry King that he doesn't like to condemn those that are living in sin. But when you're called by God to minister to the lost and point people to Jesus Christ and tell them that they are sinneres, this isn't condemning or judging someone. It is only telling that individual those sins that will send you to hell unless you give your life to Jesus Christ. Would a parent allow a toddler to stick a knife into an electrical socket? No, any parent that clearly loves their child will smack their hand lightly or pull them away to protect and let them know that they can get hurt or die.

Because Joel Osteen is full of himself and is leading the lost down the wrong path, God will hold him accountable and his punishment will be internal suffering unless he accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Savior.

Stephen and Bonita An Richie   April 8th, 2009 11:20 am ET

Dear Mr. King,

We do not watch your program but we have read the articleon CNN's internet site that pertains to an interview you had with Joel Osteen and his wife on your program.

Mr. King, we know from things we have read that you are not a Christian. We encourage you to buy a copy of The King James Version of The Bible and find the truth about The Almighty God and LORD Jesus Christ. You will not find it from people such as the Osteens. Joel Osteen departed from Jesus' true Word many years ago. Many, many, many testimonies to this are available on the internet. He is denounced by God's true remnant of believers. You can search out and read this for yourself. Please visit our website "Living Hope In Jesus" to learn about the true God and LORD Jesus Christ.

The LORD Jesus Christ loves you, Mr. King. He is reaching out for you. Please do not turn Him away.

Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie

Dave of Detroit   April 8th, 2009 11:41 am ET

I often find myself at odds with both the Christian Right and the worldly wrong as both overlook the obvious-You can't put Christian guidelines on an unChristian World. That being said, you do have the obligation to warn the world that God will judge their lifestyle and behavior, will judge the society they live in, and that there are serious consequences for sinful behavior-same sex marriage is not ordained of God and Marriage is the key sacrament of the Church as well as our society. The nuclear family is the base from which all the other sacraments evolve-from baby dedication right through the Christian burial. Those that deny the existence and authority of God have a real problem-they are mortal. They will depend on Him for their very existence from birth-their food, how healthy they are, how happy they wiill be, and whether their life has any meaning. And they will eventualy die-even Shakespear loved to quote the Scriptures -Oh Grave , where is thy victory, death where is your sting?

Rebecca   April 8th, 2009 12:49 pm ET

I've met Joel in person and he is truly a man of God. He is a SPIRITUAL Soul....not a Religious out of balance fanatic . Religion is Manmade... Joel's Truth flows from the Holy Spirit. His humility and Inner Joy is Proof. He is a True Teacher of Truth and God. His focus is on GOD only......which lifts one into a higher state of consciousness. Rather than on SATAN, and how much of a sinner you are, which has held MAN

Rebecca   April 8th, 2009 12:59 pm ET

continued: which has held MAN down for centuries, never able to climb that mountain because of the religious condemnation! And, you Larry constantly badgering them about gay marriage, you're worse than Katie Couric! They answered the question.....MOVE ON!!! You just want to hear what you want them to say. A crime against Nature is also a crime against's NOT the norm. Wake up liberals...this country is already in the Ashcan....what more do you want to do to destroy it further? How much more immoral can it get? Disgusting!

debbie   April 8th, 2009 1:09 pm ET

2 lying, phoney plastic surgery disasters sitting HIGH on a pile of their blind sheep's cash.

out of work ?
looking to make millions ?


cha-ching baby !!!!

debbie   April 8th, 2009 1:44 pm ET


you've been fooled by the pied piper.

WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hugh ~ california   April 8th, 2009 2:00 pm ET

The christian churches in America are filled of people who pray that God will bless their lifes–with a whole lot of money! Been to 'em, listened to those preachers make speeches to those born-again followers how God was going to make them prosperous, with material wealth because God likes to spoil his children! God blessed me with this, God blessed me with that. What a crock of sheep-dip!

debbie   April 8th, 2009 2:39 pm ET


religion is nothing more than a crutch for weak-minded people who can't handle the reality of life.

they need to know that a "magic man" in the sky is protecting them at all times.

they can't handle the thought that once a loved one is dead, they're DEAD. they need to believe that they'll see their loved ones again in heaven. they cannot handle the reality of death.

they are judgmental against others who are different than themselves.
they need to feel SUPERIOR.

OPEN YOUR EYES YOU COWARDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Irene, TX   April 8th, 2009 4:15 pm ET

It's all about ratings, not beliefs, dummy 🙂

Rebecca   April 8th, 2009 5:15 pm ET

I am not easily fooled Debbie....have been to the mountain top and seen beyond the veil...too many Spiritual experiences...which proved to me the Living God reigns supreme. Those who know Him...KNOW Him! Those who do NOT ... are in for a rude awakening. Your Spirit just hasn't quickened ....yet! Perhaps just a new Soul? those who think the Soul is the Mind...need to know, the Soul is ABOVE the Mind (Mental)....IT responds to Spirit, directly related to Spirit. (God). The Mind responds to the senses, will, Ego and emotions.....the lower self. The Mind is a good Servant....but a POOR Master!

Hank   April 8th, 2009 5:46 pm ET

The interview last night with the Osteens was uncharacteristicly bland. The questions Larry asked were slow-pitch softballs. It would have been much more interesting if Larry had asked how their "prosperity Gospel" internalizes and sanctions the greed that has contributed to the current economic meltdown. It would have also been interesting to hear how they reconcile their gospel of wealth with the gospel of Jesus.

debbie   April 8th, 2009 6:32 pm ET


seek mental help.

you appear to be psychotic.

ge   April 8th, 2009 8:27 pm ET

say what they want to hear and they will fill your basket

Herb   April 8th, 2009 8:47 pm ET

I get quite sickened by the slick, over-capitalized, Christian: the Osteens are a well-manufactured religious product [and Hank's right, Jesus might actually be their biggest problem – being a proto-Marxist of sorts – though Jesus said a lot which was recorded through others unfortunately]. It's as simple as that. They probably have lots of skeletons in their closets[no pun intended there]; but they are not really saying anything are they? Apart from the obvious – make a shed-load of money! But, oddly, they struggle with easy questions, and they avoid tricky ones [maybe in relation to Hank's reference to Larry's "slow-pitch softballs"; they're the one's that seem to disarm these types of slick personas and can catch them out. Obviously, the Osteens have been to PR school to clock Larry]. But it's strange how this debate doesn't break the myth of religious people are zany or evil and atheists are all humourless sinners and have breakfast with Satan [or as Rebecca states: "SATAN"; does that make it more scarier?]. It is a weird manipulation of all truths, and the Osteens seem to profit from it. I agree with the majority of comments here – though we get the wannabe Osteens trumping their "word" [Stephen and Bonita Ann – you should be ashamed of the blatant plug] plugging their website here [which Larry should stop, as they're trying the soft-sell without his permission] and telling us to get a King James Bible! Are they kidding? The Kings James is, historically, the most awful hack-job ever. I don't think they dig the history behind it and the fact that King James I used ballad-singers and hymn-composers to compile it [as evidence suggests they were not scholars at all – I think Elaine Pagels has more evidence on this, also. I recommend they – or anyone – check her out.] They wrote the King James bible like a story; a record book of religious stories – which is essentially all the bible is, right? A chronicle devoid of chronology that's almost impossible to understand properly now [bad edit methinks], like the Quran [Koran, however PC you want to be and spell it]. But then again, it seems Debbie actually wanted a real religious debate using the token tools of atheism, viz: ["OPEN YOUR EYES!] you're thick if you believe in anything greater than the "human" world – [I take it you're a zombie – as you've been dead and came back to life, so you definitely know what's there/happens, right?] sort of thing; so it would be great to know what you actually think – though I agree with you about Rebecca; you can't be half as scary as Rebecca, who has been touched by the presence of Osteen [ooh-er! Very 'Carry On']. I dig some of her metaphors regarding the "soul" – but does she[Rebecca, yes you] dig heaven and hell are metaphors, too? It'd be better to have a real religious conversation that everyone might be able to understand – instead of "No, I am right I have seen the light – you are in the dark dumbo-sinner" sort of stuff ["Those who know Him... KNOW HIM!" I'm already lost – I take it she's got God on speed-dial, right?] And she should definitely remember that if you talk to God that's fine – but if God talks to you, you're schizophrenic [I ain't kidding, I'm not qualified to assess you online, of course; but it happened to an old mate of mine...] Wicked forum for debate though; it's a credit Larry embraces all such elements of the pop-theo-politico-socio-economic-cultural melee [I don't even know if it's a real term, but I'm hoping he'll know what I mean!]

janette tx   April 8th, 2009 10:21 pm ET

The Osteens are gready and full of dog poop!!!!1

Sasha   April 8th, 2009 10:28 pm ET

I've read both Debbie's & Rebecca's, and clearly Debbie has anger issues. How can anything that brings peace and kindness be deemed wrong. Debbie, are you married? I suppose marriage is a crutch as well, do you have children – having children a crutch?? Isn't all that self serving? God Bless.

Amy   April 8th, 2009 10:35 pm ET

OMG To Stephen and Bonita Ann Ritchie: You stated you know from things you have read that Larry King is not a Christian. You are correct–he is JEWISH! For God's sake, where do you get off telling him he should be a Christian? That's like someone asking YOU to be Jewish!!!! How would you like that??

debbie   April 8th, 2009 10:49 pm ET

i'm gay SASHA.

i would love to be married, but you self-righteous christian fanatics

am i angry ? you bet i am !!!!
religious fanatics make me VERY ANGRY.
you spew your hatred and judgement at others, when you should be MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

jesus would be disgusted with all of you.

your religion might give you peace (certainly NOT kindness to others), but your religion is nothing more than a fairy tale.

Lauren   April 8th, 2009 11:37 pm ET

I watched the interview just now and i do not agree with the Osteens. I am a lesbian and i feel as if us "gays" arent good enough. If the Osteens would open there minds and open there eyes and do a little research they might see that us "gays" are just as much capable of taking care of a child as a heterosexual. We are not aliens and we are not bad people. We have just as many feelings as anyone else. And i do not agree with the way most people portray us. We are not here to hurt people, or push our ways on them, we just want to be happy like anyone else.

debbie   April 9th, 2009 12:16 am ET

well lauren,
you ARE good enough.
you're BETTER.

i'm quite sure that you have better parental skills than those religious fanatics out there.

your child would know what love & tolerance is.

our equal rights are just around the corner - trust me.

Lauren   April 9th, 2009 12:56 am ET

I know my child would know what love respect and tolerance is. My parents raised me and i turned out to be a great person. I sure hope that its around the corner lol...thank you so much for the reply.

Herb   April 9th, 2009 1:17 am ET

Yes, I should say I now twig Debbie's responses: sorry for calling you a zombie – it was nothing personal, obviously; I was just trying to make a point [badly? Maybe...] I can now see why you're angry [though it is just a bit of paper – I suppose this is equal rights these days, to be honest, so it puts a lot of what you've said into context]. Though you're gonna have to watch speaking for Jesus – being a atheist-type person. Neat trick that – that'll definitely offend someone else![not me though.] I like the fairytale bit at the end of your last post, too: I reckon it's a mixture of badly recorded truths and complete fiction to be honest – it's funny though, you ask a Christian what they think and they can't tell for sure either. Faith is, obviously, more than just a George Michael song. [I have Prodigy's One Love trapped in my mind, though -for some reason...] But Amy – well put comment – interesting point about Stephen and Bonita Ann Ritchie: it sounds like they reckon [assume] that Larry's an atheist to be honest [but maybe I'm too slow to see, Amy, that you might be alluding to anti-semiticism of some kind – blink twice for yes, once for no – I don't want to get thrown off the blog, or get you thrown off through my lack of understanding.] Alternatively, have they done the "God-is-in-My-Back-Pocket" mistake of assuming Jews are Christians, too? Or as you're suggesting, full scale conversion-via-blog [and King James Bible purchase demand]: they've possibly progressed to some form of "Carpet Christian", where their way is best, and they have to keep making it fit, keep rolling it out on whoever regardless – even if they're complete nihilists or occultists; and they might also see Judaism as an unreformed, stuck-in-the-mud, older brother religion – slightly unworthy of the constantly re-packaged and over-modernized Christianity. Likewise, Christianity could be seen as Judaism's uncontrolled younger sibling, starting fights and getting defensive and linking up way too often with it's even older, bad-ass brother, Paganism. Obviously, the new kid on the block is Islam, that keeps trying to say everything Christainity's saying – but differently – and with a few more fights thrown in for good measure, to really put Christainity in it's place. It's real difficult to tell – I'm hoping you'll clarify your comments, too, for someone as slow as me – if I have got the wrong end of the stick. It's funny though – if you've noticed, Amy – that Stephen and Bonita Ann Ritchie have not posted back to respond to you [or to me for that matter – though they'll probably respond while I'm typing this out!] I'm just hoping I don't get barred from the site – but I really am interested to find out what they truly think, as we may have got them all wrong? [Unfortunately my cynical nature says I suppose that's why they included their webpage, as well; it must get no hits – I don't really want to give it the kudos, though...Somehow, I'll try to remain a curious orange as opposed to a rotten apple...] But who am I to judge, right?

debbie   April 9th, 2009 1:52 am ET

the osteens rake in a whopping $43 million clams a year in tithes and another $36 million a year in mailed-in donations.

$79 million a year of "blind sheep cash".

and that's not counting the book sale profits !

i'll bet those two scarfed down prime rib & lobster tonight for dinner.

i had fish sticks.

Archangel Dave   April 9th, 2009 6:39 am ET

Care for any F.B.I. approved Spiritual Guidance America?
Archangel Dave

Ted from Germany   April 9th, 2009 9:24 am ET

That grin on their faces is phonier than any politician can manage. The bible teaches poverty and kindness, these people rake in money like there is no tomorrow, taking it away from families who could use it to provide a better meal for the children.
Superpreachers Osteens, does your lifestyle match the bible that you preach? And by the way, what do you do with all those millions you collect year after year? Do you pay your share of taxes? Do you help to pay the expenses of the the country that allows you to make so much money with a lot of nonsense?

Maureen   April 9th, 2009 9:40 am ET

The Olsteens are not perfect, and perhaps far from perfect, BUT I am not to judge – AND – they do not necessarily reflect the opinion of all Christians. I have never ever for a moment believed that I, or we (Jesus followers) are above anyone else. WE ARE ALL EQUAL. A good parent does not constitute whether they are gay or not. This has no bearing on our parenting skills. I am a Jesus follower – and I have close gay friend. I am not better nor worse than he.

If we are going to disagree, let's do it intelligently.

Scott Denard   April 9th, 2009 10:59 am ET

Pharasees disease those are the only terms that describe so many public preachers today. If Joel Osteen and his tammy fae looking wife bothered to read what he translated, he would have not had to stumble through the gay marriage question. How can a man re-write the Bible and add comments when he can't understand it himself. If people want to hear a diluted gospel they are guilty of idol worship. The true gospel warned of these times when men would call evil good and good evil. And for the record the Bible says homosexuality is a perversion, you can legalize it, fight for the right to it, but you can never moralize it. The standard of today's society says if it becomes popular and people fight for it hard enough legalize it. This rationale says when carried out if child sex, animal sex, and murder become popular the government needs to legalize it. This nation is in a sad mess and our generattion put it here. The moral decline is at such a rapid rate. Thank you for listening one would hoe to hear more sane voices in the wilderness in cming times. Even the honest Jewish people can see the time of the coming of the Messiah.

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